Tuesday, October 03, 2006

King Henry IV -- Act 5, Scene 2

Post a comment about Scene 2 here if you are a member of the Court, the Pubcrawlers, or the Combined group.


Blogger Chennery F said...

2) It seems, by the way Worcester and Vernon talk, that they are not really into fighting, especailly to the degree of passion that Hotspur has during htis scnene. One significant sentence that reveals this among other things is when Vernon is talking about the Prince and says, "England did never owe so sweet a hope, so much misconstrued in his wantonness." Basically, Vernon is saying that the Prince is a changed man, very different from the pub crawling robber he used to be. And that a rebel would notice that proves not only how noticably Hal did change, but a flaw in the rebels' cause. If Vernon is so bold to say Prince Hal will make a good king, it demonstrates his lack of desire to fight the man who could become a very good king. This sentence further but subtly foreshadows that disunity of the rebels that will lead to their defeat by this newly energized Prince.

Tue Oct 03, 10:57:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Stacie C said...

Significant Passage:
At the beginning of scene ii, Worcester hears the King's message but tells Vernon to conceal it from Hotspur, and states, "My nephew's trespass may be well forgot, it hath the excuse of youth and heat of blood and an adopted name of privilege: A hair brained "Hotspur," governed by a spleen. All his offenses live upon my head, and on his father's. We did train him on, and his corruption being ta'en from us, we as the spring of all shall pay for all" (16-24). Why has Worcester waited until now to try to explain Hotspur's nature, and why does he attempt to blame it on his name and his hot-blooded attitude? It almost seems like Worcester now regrets having participated in the war, and that he feels somewhat guilty for having encouraged and trained Harry Percy in his actions. Does he feel genuinely remorsefull for having corrupted Hotspur, or is he only sorry that he will probably die because of it? What is Shakespeare's purpose in including this conversation in the scene, since Hotspur would not likely have conceded to the King's offer?

Wed Oct 04, 07:44:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Dayna Z said...

Act 5, Scene 2
#4: “If he outlive the envy of this day, England did never owe so sweet a hope, so much misconduct in his wantonness” (66-68). This quote of Vernon’s reflects that he agrees with what Hal proclaimed in his first soliloquy: that if Hal succeeds in becoming good, he will appear all the better because of the sharp contrast to his rebellious past. Vernon declares that if Hal survives the battle that is about to occur, England would be happily surprised because they misunderstood his recklessness all along (believing he was simply bad and lazy, rather than his real plan of setting-off his good qualities once he does step up and rejoin the court).

“An if we live, we live to tread on kings; If die, brave death, when princes die with us. Now, for our consciences, the arms are fair when the intent of bearing them is just” (85-89). I really like how powerful this quote is. Hotspur knows that he and his men may very well die in this battle, yet he makes a stirring speech to motivate his men. He declares that if they live, they will be better even than kings (because they will have defeated King Henry), but if they die, it will have been a brave death because it will be among princes. The most powerful statement in this quotation is that their minds should be eased by the idea that it is fair to raise arms and fight when they have a just reason for their actions. This speech is only effective coming from Hotspur's mouth (as opposed to any other character) because he knows that the odds are very much against him because of his father’s absence and he has the most to lose because he has accumulated so many glories and triumphs throughout his life that it is really moving that Hotspur would still have the courage enough to make such a rousing, honorable speech before battle.

Wed Oct 04, 08:29:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Sean K said...

With the rebels on the verge of battle, the image of blood plays an important role in describing the character of Hotspur during this passage. It is first referenced by Worcester in line 17, “My nephew’s trespass may be well forgot;/ It hath the excuse of youth and heat of blood,/ And an adopted name of privilege,” which shows Hotspur’s tendency for war. This tendency for war is why Worcester believes that the King will break a deal with the rebels and Worcester therefore decides to omit this news from Hotspur. Blood is also referred to by Hotspur in lines 94-95, “And here draw I/ A sword, whose temper I intend to stain/ With the best blood that I can meet withal/ In the adventure of this perilous day,” which Hotspur says to his soldiers. Again, this shows Hotspur’s fixation for battle because he wants to kill as many men as possible. Hotspur is now on a vendetta and does not want to reason with the King, but wants to inflict as much damage as possible. Clearly, the blood images in this scene that relate to Hotspur show the extreme mentality Hotspur has created against the King.

Thu Oct 05, 07:28:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Molly M said...

Act 5, Scene 2
If I were Worcester in this scene I would begin by being very timid and afraid that the truth about Hal's offer would come out. Worcester is plotting to help save himself because he is afraid that the king will turn on him eventually if he follows orders. He says, "The king should keep his word in loving us. He will suspect us still, and find a time to punish this offense in other faults" (lines 5-7). I would be suspicious and act very secretive and nervous. But as soon as Hotspur enters the room, Worcester's entire attitude changes. He becomes very loud and putting on an act that it is time for battle. I would be very confident and come across as angry with the king for calling "us rebels and traitors" (line 40), This shows again the two-sided parts that characters in this play act out. Hal plays two sides and now Worcester is playing a double role! What is the significance of this? It worked for Hal, but it only got Worcester in trouble.

Thu Oct 05, 09:26:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Steph Zepelin said...

"Suspicion all our lives shall be stuck full of eyes,/ For treason is but trusted like the fox," -Worcester
I really liked this quote because it really illustrates that the rebels are coniving. It helps to characterize them, and the language used is catchy.

"And we shall feed like oxen at a stall,/ The better cherished still the nearer death."-Worcester
This is an awesome simile. Very true and very bleak.

"By now forswearing that he is forsworn."-Worcester
Shakespeare writes a play on words like "heir apparent" vs "here apparent." This caught my eye.

"O gentlemen, the time of life is short;/ To spend that shortness basely were to long."- Hotspur
I don't really understand what Hotspur is say about life, but this quote is intruiging.

"An if we live, we live to tread on kings"-Hotspur
WOW! I love this quote. Hotspur is saying in this quote (if you keep reading) that they will either kill the monarchy and die with them, or they will conquer them. He states it so powerfully.

"And by that music let us all embrace,/ For, heaven to earth, some of us never shall/ A second time do such a courtesy."-Hotspur
This may sound kind of silly, but with the recent school shootings, this quote spoke to me. It plays into my philosophy of always telling people that you care about how you feel because you never know when you will see them for the last time.

Thu Oct 05, 09:58:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Matt L said...

I agree with you completely. Vernon and Worcester are very reluctant to fight. Vernon has opposed Hotspur in the past and Worcester is the character who seems to push most strongly for a deal. But what most intirgues me about this point is why is Vernon the only rebel strong enough to confront Hotspur. His line, "England did never owe so sweet a hope,/ so much misconstrued in his wantonness," is a direct jab at Hotspur. Nothing could enfuriate Hotspur more than having an ally talk of an enemy in such positively resonating tones. Hotspur and Vernon are in direct conflict but Vernon and Worcester are in compliance. I think the rebels would be a more unified force if Hotspur was gone.

Thu Oct 05, 10:17:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Sam S said...

I don't really understand why Worcester doesn't want Hotspur to know about the king's offer to stop the war and completely pardon all the rebels?

Thu Oct 05, 10:18:00 PM 2006  
Blogger DanaitA said...

Stacie C
I also thing it is strange that until now no one in the play has mentioned the connectin between Hotspur's personality and the meaning of his name. One reason for this may be that scene five is where most of the action of the play is and perhaps describing the connection with Hotspura nd his name becomes more relevant in the battle scenes. Also, I don't think that Worcester is remorseful about training Hotspur to behave this way, I believe that he is more worried about himself. He tells Vernon that he will be the one punished because of the actions of Hotspur and therefore he is not going to tell Hotspur about the King's offer. By not telling Hotspur about the deal Worcester is benefiting himself because he now has someone to fight his battle with the King for him and now was an increased chance of not being killed.

Thu Oct 05, 10:27:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Matt P said...

Worcester seems to be the agitators of Hotspur and Douglas. The old man leads the younger, naive men into the battle without telling Hotspur and Douglas of the King's proposal for peace. Worcester tells Vernon, "All his [Hotspur's] offenses live upon my head/And on his father's; we did train him on...We, as the spring of all, shall pay for all"(20-23), meaning the older men, Worcester and Northumberland, who have led the rebels will be punished by the King, and young Hotspur and Douglas will be let off because they were led on. In essence, Worcester has beeen using Hotspur and Douglas as pawns, and continues, selfishly, to do so even when they could be saved because Worcester fears his punishment. Worcester blatantly lies to Hotspur about his negotiatons with the king saying, "He calls us rebels, traitor, and will scourge/With haughty arms this hateful name in us" (40-41). Worcester does this because he wants to fight because, at least then if he wins, he will go unpunished. Hotspur, trusting his uncle, is whipped into a fight of rage to fight, not ever knowing, that the King actually proposed peace and Hotspur would have been let off easily. Hotspur's and Douglas' trusts are betrayed by Worcester who uses them as pawns with no regard for their well-being, and only his interests and safety in mind.

Thu Oct 05, 10:36:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Maya R said...

Without this scene, we would not see the depth to which the rebels' disunity stretches. Worcester doesn't trust Hotspur to make the right decision regarding the offer of peace, so he doesn't even reveal this information to Hotspur. He also hides Prince Hal's challenge from Hotspur.

Thu Oct 05, 10:51:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Amy J said...

In this scene, Vernon seems to be the voice of reason when trying to make peace between Prince Hal and Hotspur. Why does no one seem to listen to Vernon if he is the level-headed one? Hotspur has a lot of leverage with the rebels, but for what reason? He continuously acts rashly, which will hurt them in the end if they follow his lead. It seems to me that the young people of the rebellion should take a hint from Vernon, and Worcester as well, since he often tries to calm Hotspur. Are Hotspur's good qualities even worth the effort it takes for the older men to calm him down incessantly?

Thu Oct 05, 11:20:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Becca S said...

10.) This scene, while about Hotspur and the rebels, still conveys a message about the different role models Harry and Hotspur have and what they have been taught by these role models. Vernon explains to Hotspur in this scene about Harry's princely demaenor: "No by my soul, I never in my life / Did hear a challenge urged more modestly, / Unless a brother should a brother dare" (51-53). Hal's attitude is a sharp contrast to Hotspur's because Hotspur always acts rashly, emotionally, and instinctively. This is representative of his role models --a group of military rebels. Worcester at the beginning of the scene even takes responsibility for this: "All his offences live upon my head / And on his father's. We did train him on, / And his corruption being ta'en from us, / We as the spring of all shall pay for all" (20-23). Hal comparitively did not use his respectful role models as he grew up because he was too busy with his own youthful rebellion. However, when he turned personally turned himself around in a time of need, he took after the nobility of his father and is proving to be very respectable and princely.

Fri Oct 06, 03:11:00 AM 2006  
Blogger Emily M said...

Response to Act 5 Scene 2:
At the beginning of this scene, Worcester and Lord Vernon are talking about King Henry's pardon and the offer of a one-on-one battle between Hotspur and Hal. Worcester selfishly decides to not tell Hotspur about either of these. He says, "The king should keep his word in loving us; He will suspect us still and finds a time To punish this offence in other faults." Worcester claims that both he and Northumberland would still be treated badly because of their old age. THen Hotspur and Douglas enter, and Worcester tells Hotspur that the King has insulted their family. In his usual hot-headed fashion, Hotspur challenges the Percys on the battlefield. After Hotspur has sent a messenger to let the Percys know of his challenge, Worcester lets him know the truth about Hal's one-on-one idea. Hotspur readily agrees to it, and says that he will "...enbrace him with a soldiers arm". A messenger enters with letter for Hotspur, and he says that he is too preoupied to read them. Then, Hotspur and the rest savor their last moment: "For heaven to earth, some of us never shall a second time do such a courtesy"

Fri Oct 06, 06:47:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Lauren M said...

In this scene, the battle still hasn't started, but I could feel it ebbing closer. Worcester decides to not tell Hotspur about the offer the prince made. Worcester is really selfish in this scene because he is willing for innocent people to lose their lives so he can get his way. He lies to Hotspur and tells him that the prince insulted the Percy family and only tells Hotspur of the prince's offer after Hotspur sends a messenger to tell the prince that they're going to battle. Hotspur responds by saying that he'll meet the prince on the battle field and fight him one-on-one next to his men. In the rush of things, another messenger arrives for Hotspur with the letters from the Archbishop of York. Hotspur does not read them.

Fri Oct 06, 07:02:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Melissa said...

Act 5 Scene 2

5. Worcester's actions surprised me in this scene. He manipulates Hotspur to rush into action that he was warning him about in the previous act. Remember in Act IV Scene iii? As Hotspur was eager to rush into the monumentous battle with King Henry's forces, Worcester urged him, "Good cousin, be advised; stir not tonight" (line 6), and "The number of the king exceedeth ours./For God's sake, cousin, stay till all come in" (lines 28-29). He is worried and cautious about the situation in this act, and attempts to persuade Hotspur to avoid fighting. Yet, once he is offered the pardon from the King in Act V scene i, his manner changes. He realizes that if they accepted, the king would never cease his watch on them and they would forever be under scrutiny, "He will suspect us still and find a time/To punish this offense in other faults" (6-7). When he decides not to tell Hotspur of the pardon, he is only remaining silent in order to protect his and his family's own future from the King.

He manipulates the young warrior Hotspur quite well, as he has rad his character throughout their journey, and he knows how he will react when he lies and tells him the King slandered his family. He calls Hotspur, "A hare-brained Hotspur, governed by a spleen./All his offenses live upon my head/And on his father's. We did train him on" (19-21). It almost sounds like Worcester resents Hotspurs disposition and is finally taking action against him by manipulating him. He resents the fact that Hotspur's actions led them to the position they are in--whether or not they should give up their privacy and dignity and succumb to the king, or whether they should risk the battle, that will possibly lead them to their deaths?

Sat Oct 07, 03:28:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Dana A said...

Act V Scene II-
2) The significance of this scene is it foreshadows the failure of the Rebels to take the crown.

Worcester and Vernon are not even backing Hotspur. It even seems as if they almost want him to be defeated so that all their problems are gone in the swoop of a sword. "We as the spring of all shall pay for all." By this statement Worcester means that he is the source of Hotspur's character and that he will be blamed for Hotspur's actions which will hurt his image. Also the rebels faiure is foreshadowed by the many references to death. "O gentlemen the time of life is short" "If die, brave death when princes die with us." The play needs this scene to see how the rebels no longer have a high regard for Hotspur. But Hotspur is still moving forward and this demonstrates his honor and devotion to a cause that his peers clearly dont have.

Sun Oct 08, 05:14:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Karen W said...

Act 5 Scene 2

I was not surprised that Worcester tricked Hotspur. Even though they are on the same team, their relentless bickering indicated selfishness and inability to compromise.
What is Worcester thinking? If I were as stealthy as he, I would think....

"If I appease the king, I will be watched, and eventually, I will be punished for betraying the crown. Hotspur, the fool, might except the king's offer of peace, which does me no good for a future. He is easily manipulated, I will place the coals beneath his feet, make him fire fury at the king.....Yes, and he has played into my hand so perfectly. I've made up lies and he grows hot, he can't wait to erupt. The war will proceed, the battle shall be ours, and in turn, our lands and rightful desires can at last come true. How perfectly hot headed Hotspur is! Even just now, he arouses the troops not suspecting my foul play...splendid!"

Sun Oct 08, 09:14:00 PM 2006  
Blogger sarahg said...


Why does Worcester think that Hotspur will accept the king's offer for peace? Hotspur is the one who has been ridiculously cocky, and wants to fight no matter what. Also, Hotspur seems to show his anger the most out of the rebels, so I do not understand why Worcester feels it necessary to keep the information regarding the king's offer from Hotspur.

Sun Oct 08, 10:07:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Eric W. said...

2. The significance of this scene is to expose the dishonest leadership of the rebels and foreshadow the ultimate failure of the revolt against the king. Without this scene, we wouldn't really know how dishonest the leaders of the Rebels truly are and at this point, their motives are clear. The Rebels don't just want the throne, they want bloodshed. Vernon doesn't explain the truth about the Prince and his agreement to Hotspur and this definitely reveals the anger the rebels have towards the court and their purely vindictive hearts.

Mon Oct 09, 12:27:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Nicole M said...

2. this scene is significant because it once again draws attention to Hotspur's flaws, while comparing him to the more mature and honorable Hal that was introduced in the previous scene. Hotspur's hot-headedness is once again made apparent when he immediately flares up after hearing of the alleged slurs against his family. By immediately sending a message to Henry, this hot-headed, temper-driven Hotspur seems very childish and immature when compared with the Hal from the previous scene.

Mon Oct 09, 08:14:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Chaser said...

The rebels are just what they are, a rebellion. They have never been particularly organized, opting rather to partition tasks and land rather than work as a cooperation to achieve their motives. This scene is crucial to further illustrate this because we see that the rebels are not in agreement on how to go about fulfilling their intentions for victory. First of all, Worcester is hesitant, as Hotspur is ready to try to take on the enemy no matter what the odds. In a sense, Worcester and Vernon appear to be more realistic, but at the same time, their disagreement with Hotspur only further intensifies the disaccordance between the rebels and the rebellion. Second, Hotspur's plans to attack the King's forces versus that of Worcester and Vernon are quite different. They cannot even agree on a time to attack, let alone decide on the best way to go about it. The rebellion is never going to be successful, as we later discover in the act, because the rebellion is not coordinated well-enough to be successful.

Wed Oct 11, 12:53:00 PM 2006  

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