Wednesday, September 27, 2006

Henry IV, Act IV, scene 3

Rebels and Pub Crawlers, post your comment about Act 4 scene 3. See the directions under Act 4, scene 1 for details. When you finish commenting on this page, post a comment to someone on Mr. Kleeman's class blog.

26 Comments:

Blogger Chennery F said...

5) In this scene, King Henry sends Blunt to ask the rebels if they want to share their greivances with the king in return that they shall be amended and the rebels granted amnesty. Blunt says "You shall have your desires with interest, and pardon absolute for yourself and these herein mislead by your suggestion." I think this was a great political move by King Henry. He could potentially avoid war, but either way seems like "the good guy." By sending a messanger, it proves he still does not interact with common people, even the ones who helped get him into power. But by offereing such a nice comprimise, the king proves he is a smart king. He knows that a simple granting of wishes and amnesty could save many lives and reduce the potentially violent discontent growing in his kingdom. But does the king really think it will be that simple? I mean, Hotspur seems like a very stubborn character, so it will be interesting to see how the king's proposition plays out.

Wed Sep 27, 10:49:00 PM 2006  
Blogger The Katie S. said...

Chennery:

Can you really say that the king sending Blunt as a messenger means he won't interact with commoners? The rebels, for one, aren't exactly commoners because they are the nobles supporting the rightful line for the king. Therefore, they aren't what you would necessarily call peasant folk. However, I will agree with you in your perception of the king's intelligence. After all, if you don't need to fight a war, why would you? I would like to add that this is also a smart move because it potentially saves himself. He's not only looking for the welfare of his people/men, but his own well-being as he might be attacked, killed, or have another rebellion on his hands if the people decide they don't want to fight anymore. As for your last query which might very well be rhetorical, I am not sure whether we can know from the text if King Henry IV thinks a compromise will work. Yet I believe he might be thinking, "Hey, it's worth a shot." Who knows, it might work and since Hotspur is rather moody, if this man Blunt is actually someone he respects, etc. he might be swayed. Evidently, most unfortunate for the king, he was not.

Thu Sep 28, 05:57:00 AM 2006  
Blogger MeganF said...

Chennery-

I agree with you that the King's proposition was a smart one because he was portrayed level-headed and capable of compromise, two adjectives that do not describe Hotspur. I do not think the King thinks that by sending a messenger the war will be called off. I don’t believe that thought really ever crossed his mind. His proposal was a "courtesy" proposal that was a final attempt at avoiding war. The King did not expect Hotspur to accept, especially because he knows Hotspur's personality and irrationality. One question I have to your post is if it a good thing that the king "proves he still does not interact with common people, even the ones who helped him get into power?" One of the main reasons Hotspur is so mad is the King pushed him aside. The King's sense of power is an underlying reason why the war is beginning. Hotspur reflects this idea in Act I, Scene iii, " But shall it be that you that set the crown Upon the head of this forgetful man And for his sake wear the detested blot Of murderous subornation—shall it be That you a world of curses undergo, Being the agents or base second means," (160-165). I do not believe associating yourself with commoners is a disrespectable manner for a King. Hal, King Henry the V, is one of the most loved Kings in England's history because he listened to the people and developed out of their society.

Thu Sep 28, 02:25:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Justin L said...

Response to Act 4 Scene 3:

3) After reading Act 4 Scene 3, a few questions arose in my mind regarding the actions taken by both Hotspur and the King? During the play, Hotspur seems to be very angered and upset over the actions taken by the king, leading into his want to “fight with him tonight” (4.3.1), yet why? Wouldn’t someone who really wanted to change the world for the better, create a strong plan that was sure to succeed? Why is Hotspur so itchy to begin the fighting? Could this be as simple as the anger that he has built up over time, or is that a character fall, which will lead to his possible downfall? King Henry, knowing this, seems right to offer an olive branch of peace to Hotspur, yet the question is why does he feel that he needs to (4.3.36)? Wouldn’t the King assume that his troops have the ability to defeat a group of rebels, or does he think that Hotspur is so great that it is possible he could defeat the King? Yet, more realistically, I think that the King is offering a plan for peace, not out of fear, but out of a general sense that he is the King and must take the higher, better road. My question, now is that is this the turning point for this play? I think that it very possibly may be.

Thu Sep 28, 05:31:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Emma V said...

Justin l.

I think that King Henry is trying to avoid this battle for two reasons. One, that fact that he respects Hotspur and has said that he wishes he were his son makes him reluctant to fight. Second, I think that King Henry understands the anger and motivation behind the rebels plan to overthrow him. I think that although King Henry has the forces to win the war, he sees this as the end of his rule. I agree that this could be a turning point but I am also not sure what that may be.

Thu Sep 28, 06:26:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Jimmy N. said...

-Chennery
I really disagree with your comment on how King Henry avoided dealing with, "common people," by sending a messanger to Hotspur. What else was he supposed to do, go and talk to them himself. He's the king, he's absolutely within his own power to send a messanger. I do however like your point on why the king attempted to grant amnesty to Hotspur. Why fight a war if it's not necessary? I dont necessarily think the request will work, however its still worth a shot. In response to your question, I don't think the king actually believes his request will be fulfilled by Hotspur. After all, they wouldn't be in this situation in the first place if it weren't for Hotspur's stubborness and self pride, however there is always hope that Hotspur will suddenly come to his senses and forget the whole affair.

Thu Sep 28, 06:29:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Megan M said...

Justin L.~

I agree that in general, someone who wanted to change the world for the better would create a strong plan that was almost sure to succeed. However, this is Hotspur we're talking about; I don't think that a better world is really his motivation. Instead, he personally is angry with some or all aspects of the king's rule and wants revenge as soon as possible; being such a hot-headed character, he would much rather start the fighting right away than wait for any reason. I think you're on the right track in saying that his hot-headedness, demonstrated here as well as throughout the rest of the play, is a character flaw that could easily lead to his downfall.

Thu Sep 28, 09:39:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Dayna Z said...

Act 4, Scene 3
# 2: One major significance of this scene is that it conveys Hotspur’s precise reasons for rebelling against the king, including many personal offenses such as dismissing Percy from the court, and it portrays that Hotspur feels he has been forced into war. Without this scene, it would still remain a little ambiguous as to why the rebels feel so passionately against the court. In this scene, however, Hotspur directly states, “And in conclusion [the king] drove us to seek out this head of safety, and withal to pry into his title, the which we find too indirect for long continuance” (104-107). Hotspur does not simply say he wants war with the king, but he implies he feels he has no choice. Another significance of the scene is to demonstrate Hotspur’s eagerness to go to war for the motives he lists.

Thu Sep 28, 10:49:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Karen W said...

Act 4 scene 3

I am going to recap what happened in this scene because it's late and i want to make sure i understand what just happened.

The rebels can’t decide when to attack King Henry’s forces because once again, they are arguing amongst themselves. Hotspur is most impatient to forge ahead, “Tonight, say I.” Vernon argues to stay when he states that certain horse “are not yet come.” Men have not yet arrived and those that have just arrived that day. The horses are tired. Hotspur believes Henry’s horses will be just as tired, and the majority of theirs aren’t. Then in comes a messenger of the king who says that the rebels should tell the king why they are upset and forget battle and the king will appease their wishes. Hotspur is compelled to speak a lot. He talks of how he used to have respect for the monarchy, but was eventually personally wronged. Then Hotspur says that he will send a messenger to the king in the morning to deliver their solution. The way Hotspur and Blunt the messenger interact is more peaceful than the way the rebels interact within themselves. SO far, there has been more warring by those in agreement (the rebels) than those in disagreement (the rebels and the king).

Thu Sep 28, 11:26:00 PM 2006  
Blogger julie s said...

Chennery & Megan -

I think that we're giving Henry a bit too much credit here. He's offering a compromise to Hotspur to make himself appear a nobleman and possibly he offered it in hopes of avoiding conflict out of fear of Hotspur. He knows he backstabbed Hotspur and Northumberland, he's not an idiot, he knows exactly what he did.

Hotspur doesn't take Blunt up on the offer not out of irrationality, I think. Like I said in my post for this scene on Makovsky's site, Hotspur has a Vendetta. Henry screwed him over, so Hotspus isn't going to play nice.

Maybe I'm just biased though. Like I've said before too, I don't even know the exact reason why I side so much with Hotspur, but I just have hope I guess. I feel for Hotspur.

Thu Sep 28, 11:37:00 PM 2006  
Blogger kelsee p said...

3.) Hotspur’s accusations in this scene are somewhat hypocritical, since he seems to imply that his father, Northumberland, only helped Henry to power because he believed that Henry would not overthrow the rightful king (“he heard him swear and vow to God / He came but to be Duke of Lancaster” [IV.iii.62–63]). Why does he present these accusations in such a hypocritcal manner? What does everyone think that this does to further damage Hotspur's character? Or does it?

Sat Sep 30, 01:04:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Kylee L said...

Act IV, scene 3:
7) I am very antsy and want to fight now because King Henry seems to me to be unprepared and vulnerable. His son, Hal, is not the son that King Henry wishes he was. Hal probably won’t help out his dad after all, which would just give me another advantage. My anxiety is making me more and more determined to fight the King. Even though the King wants to make peace and avoid the war I want to consider the circumstances a little more. But maybe I will decide to accept the King's amnesty.

Sun Oct 01, 12:35:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Becca S said...

9.)
In Act 4 Scene 3, the motifs of honor and courage each distinctly define two separate worlds of the play: the King's and the Rebels'. At the beginning of the scene, Hotspur (seemingly the upcoming leader of the rebels) is overly optimistic about the war. He wants to go full-steam-ahead without the necessary soldiers and reinforcements: "We'll fight with him tonight(1)"..."Tonight, say I(15)". Hotspur represents the world of courage in the novel. He leads the group of rebels, of revolutionaries, and the people bold enough to fight for their own beliefs. Hotspur is the lead rebel even in the group of rebels because of his radical position; proven by the insistence of his superiors (in this scene Worcester and Vernon) trying to talk some sense into him.

The King's lifestyle represents honor. When Sir William Blunt enters to deliver a generous message from the King, the courageous rebels brush it off. The King's distinguished language and reputation also give the King honor throughout the entire play: "If that the King / Have any way your good deserts forgot, / Which he confesseth to be manifold, / He bids you name your griefs, and with all speed / You shall have your desires with interest / And pardon aboslute for yourself(45-50)". The way Shakespeare portrays each team in the war foreshadows who will be victorious. Because the King is fighting honorably and generously even with greater armies and chance of victory, Shakespeare leads the reader to think the "greater" team will win.

Sun Oct 01, 04:20:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Robyn Louis said...

1) Summery
This scene begins with Hotspur, Worcester, Douglass, and Vernon arguing about when to attack King Henry. Hotspur and Douglass are impatient and want to attack now. They think this is better because the King is still waiting for more troops. Worcester and Vernon plead for them to wait for the attack. They feel that the rebels are not ready: they need to wait for more troops as well and for their horses to rest. This argument is interrupted when Blunt arrives with a peace proposal from the King. The King wants to know what the rebels’ complaints are and why they are rebelling. The King offers to meet their demands and pardon the rebels. Hotspur then begins a long speech about the wrongs the King has committed to the Percy family. He doubts the king's promise because the king made many promises to the Percy family that he did not keep. The Percy family helped Henry when he was a criminal. Then Henry went behind their back and overthrew and killed the king. Finally the King would not pay the ransom for Mortimer. Hotspur ends telling Blunt that they will decide and send an answer to the King tomorrow morning whether they will accept the peace offer or not.

Sun Oct 01, 06:10:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Emily M said...

Response to Act 4 Scene 3:
5)
This scene is a very interesting portrayal of all sides of Hotspur. In his usual over-the-top manner, he runs his mouth to Sir Blunt, to simply tell him that the Percys are very disapopinted in the King. This is very obvious and redundant, as this is the basis of the play. (However, I do find this scene helpful in learning more about the background between the 2 families.) Then, at the end of the scene, Hotspur says to Blunt,"And in the morning early shall mine uncle bring him our purposes: and so farewell." This is very uncharacteristic of Hotspur's warlike demeanor. The fact that he is remotely considering the King's kind offer is so odd! Maybe he is bluffing, and this is simply a strategical move for Hotspur...

Sun Oct 01, 08:12:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Dana A said...

Act IV Scene III-
7) Hotspur is feeling very impatient in this scene. He just wants to hurry up and get the fight over with so he can take the thrown. Some of his increased sense of urgency, I believe, comes from Hotspur thinking that with his dad out of the way, he can simply get things done without having the approval of others. Though Hotspur does appear to be making rash decisions in this scene, I believe that he is thinking like a true rebel. Any army that the rebels get together will be small and insignificant. The king's army is huge and well trained. Hotspur believes that if they catch the king by surprise, his army won't be ready and taking the thrown will be much easier. Hotspur is very annoyed by his fellow rebels because they are thinking too cautiously and dont see his point of view. Hotspur's personality is one that makes decisions on a whim while his comrades need careful planning and detailing. The arrival of Blunt seems to be simply a minor annoyance to Hotspur, who will never reconsider his lust for the thrown. To Hotspur his image is very important and backing down would be a big blow to his dignity. The outcome of Hotspur's increasing impatience and annoyance at his men, we dont yet know but my prediction is that Hotspur is about to make a very risky and rash decision that will bring about his downfall.

Sun Oct 01, 09:07:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Eric G. said...

Yay for summary!!! The rebels argue as night draws. Douglas and Hotspur want to attack Henry asap before he recieves reinforcements and Veron and Worchester think the attack should wait until the rebel reinforcements arrive. It's a question of who gets more for waiting. Then Blunt comes and tells the rebels to send a list of grievances to the King and if they are reasonable than he will comply. The rebels agree, send the grievances and wait for the King's reply

Sun Oct 01, 09:12:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Kendra W said...

Act 4 Scene 3

And yet again, the rebels are arguing with each other. Are they ever going to get their act together? I don't see how this group became a threat to the King in the first place, they hardly agree on anything. Fight tonight, don't fight tonight. I think it's pretty clear that Hotspur and his crew are beinning their downfall but I can't help wonder if they have any room for a chance to redeem themselves. The opportunity the King gives them to give him their grievances if they are reasonable looks like a good opportunity for the rebels to unite and agree together on something.

Sun Oct 01, 09:37:00 PM 2006  
Blogger ChristyH said...

Response to Act 4 Scene 3:
5) After reading this scene, I was very surprised at the actions of both King Henry and Hotspur. For King Henry to send Blunt to ask Hotspur if he wanted to share is thoughts and not fight seems very un-kinglike. Blunt says, "The King hath sent to know the nature of your griefs, and whereupon you conjure from the breast of civil peace such bold hostility...he bids you name your griefs...and pardon absolute for yourself..." (4.3.43-45, 50-52). It seems like King Henry is afraid of a fight, possibly showing his insecurities as King. Also, by him making this offer to Hotspur, Henry is revealing that he knows his position is in question and he has to almost befriend his enemies. I also thought this action by Henry was very ironic because he is saying he will pardon Hotspur, when really King Henry is the one in debt to the whole Percy family for them helping him into power.
In this scene I was also very surprised at the actions of Hotspur. When Hotspur is first confronted with the idea presented by the King, he is opposed to the idea. When Hotspur tells Blunt all the bad things King Henry has done, he portrays a war-like attitude and implies that there is no peaceful way out for Henry. Then, I was really surprised that at the end, Hotspur says he might give in and communicate with Henry. It seemed hypocritical of Hotspur and his war-like nature to back down from a battle against his worst enemy.

Sun Oct 01, 09:47:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Kaeli K said...

7)I am pretending to be Hotspur. I am very ready to fight. I am very confident, almost a little too confident that is a potential area to be a weakness because it might become a blindspot. I feel like my dad and Glendower should be ready to fight and send their men, but aren't coming out because they are weak people. I want to go fight right now because the enemy hasn't had time to assimilate so they are weak right now. Worcester, Douglas, and Vernon have lost their courage and are holding me back from achieving the greatness I am born to achieve.

Sun Oct 01, 10:34:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Steph Zepelin said...

9)
This scene showed the most examples of honor, courage and rebellion. The whole scene was all about the war. First, Hotspur and his comrades are talking about when to go fight, and whether it would be better to go out that night or to wait. Hotspur says that he is courageous enough to send troops out that night. Then Blunt enters. Hotspur tells Blunt how much he and his men admire Blunt and wish that Blunt were on their side. Blunt, however, says that because they are rebelling against the rightful king he will never go to their side.
Then Hotspur launches into a huge speech about how HE (Hotpsur) was one of the people who helped get this king into power. He makes a huge speech about his honor and all that he has done for the current king and how that give him more of a right to rebel.

Sun Oct 01, 10:39:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Sam S said...

In this scene King Henry sends Blunt to talk with the rebels to ask what their problem with the king is and if it can be fixed in any way. Hotspur then proceeds to tell Blunt about all his grievances against King Henry-how his father helped the king return to England and get his land back, and in return the king dismissed his father from the court, and also fired Hotspur and his uncle. After this Hotspur tells Blunt that they will not tell the king their purposes until the morning.

Sun Oct 01, 11:11:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Amy J said...

#2
In this scene, Hotspur finally explains his grievances against the king that have prompted him to rebel.

Without his reasoning, Hotspur seems to be only a hot-headed young man that wants to rule the kingdom and will pursue that goal at any cost. This scene gives him some credibility. He explains that King Henry IV “deposed the King/…deprived him of his life/…tasked the whole state” (lines 92-94). These problems involve the entire nation, but do not seem to add up to rebelling against him. In lines 99-104, however, Hotspur continues to explain the personal wrongs the king has done against him: “Disgraced me in my happy victories,/ Sought to entrap me by intelligence,/ Rated mine uncle from the council board,/…dismissed my father from the court/ Broke oath on oath.” It seems that all of the men King Henry used to get into power and to overthrow King Richard II were dismissed from any roles of importance surrounding the king. In this way, he broke promises to all of them, probably that he would give them positions of power and standing once he ascended to the throne. Although this monologue may not make Hotspur seem right, it does back him up. I wonder if the king really will pardon the rebels, and if the rebels will demand to be in power, or to be in the rightful positions they had previously agreed to.

Mon Oct 02, 08:14:00 AM 2006  
Blogger Lauren M said...

2)
In this scene, Hotspur is required to choose between honor and courage, and his inflated pride. Since Henry has offered him full amnesty (which was a pretty cool of him) and an offer to settle all grievances against the king, this attractive offer definitely catches Hotspur's attention. Another factor working in King Henry's favor is that Northumberland didn't show, the prince is proving the world wrong about his corrupt past, and Glendower's troops won't be on time. All of these bad news factors are making amnesty and compromise look pretty good to Hotspur. This could have represented a turning point in the play since Hotspur has been portrayed as such a warmonger, however his end decision follows suit with his behavioral patterns throughout the play so far. Without this scene, the reader would not have seen this side of Hotspur.

Mon Oct 02, 06:38:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Chaser said...

Going along a lot with what Dayna said, I think it's important to remember that Hotspur, although sometimes coming across as a bit more radical, doesn't exactly try to establish war with the king. I mean, he is insulted by the King and the court is less than supportive of Hotspur. Still, it does an important point to convey the rebels so against the court but in turn makes Hotspur have a more a valid reason for feeling like he is in a situation in which he is forced to create war with the King. He is not, say, Falstaff, and so hot-headed that he just goes out and does something, or says something rather, that completely creates a sense of disillusionment or even worse: pride. At the same time, Hotspur is not adamantly against the war, either. Yes, he feels pressured and obligated, but remember that he has quite a few good reasons to want to get back at the King. It will be interesting to see where his relationship with the King goes from here!

Mon Oct 02, 09:45:00 PM 2006  
Blogger Chaser said...

Kaeli, not to discount anything you said as you were looking at this scene from Hotspur's point of view, but I think you need to include that even though he is ready to fight, he is not exactly on edge excited about it, either. I get the impression that he technically does not really want to have to fight but the circumstances have led him to feel as if he has no choice. Isn't this true in most situations of conflict? Someone starts something and the other side has no choice but to involve themselves and often defend themselves? I don't think Hostpur really looks at this so much that he wants to attack now just because his opposition is weak, but because he also feels as if he is now in a situation where he simply must take action as well. Perhaps I am completely off key with it, but I get the recurring impression that Hotspur has a few more hesitations and reservations to take action than his outward direction may suggest.

Mon Oct 02, 09:48:00 PM 2006  

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